|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 5, 2005 9:25:41 GMT -5
As there has been a whole lot of discussions and accusations about straight shots; Some even uses bad language trying to make their arguments look like more trustworthy - lets talk about it some.Obviously there are some situations when cheating is obvious. Although I wouldnt call it cheating. Rather unfair playing. Such situation is . . . - using computer controlled actions - like tough-pad and think-pad on IBM laptop computers and simular actions. Then there is no room for mistakes. Its all controlled by the computer.
On the other hand . . . - using straight shot support like vertical lines in a Microsoft Office document I dont at all regard it as unfair playing. Why
First you dont let the computer overtake the situation. There are still room for mistakes. And further; there are a whole lot of already accepted methods simular to those vertical lines. Everybody knows there are already visible lines on the couronne board that can be used. There are also hundreds of marks on the couronneboard itsself that - I suppose every couronne player already use those to some extent. If they aint using them they soon will.While using those marks it helps you a lot to make difficult shots possible - like 3 walls and so on. But there are still room for mistakes as its not computer controlled. Thats why its not unfair. Just like concerning those vertical lines in an Office document will also help you. Scandal Player(Tam was a good friend - Hope she will be back)
|
|
|
Post by Mike on Jun 5, 2005 21:03:14 GMT -5
To a point you are right. But going out of the Shockplay window to shoot your shots is considered unfair play...the game is in the shockplay window, so stay in that window, and only use the keyboard for typing. I'm sick of these people using mousekeys all the time..you gain no skill whatsoever, and i hope rocketman figures out a way to disable this noobish feature. i play as fair as can be, and i know many others that do too, but when you play a cheater in league, that gets to my last nerves knowing he got to that high division cheating the whole way up...if that feature is disabled, then maybe shockplay can make room for some TRUE league players, and less people will resign. But that's just my opinion....
|
|
|
Post by rogerdeathmaker on Jun 6, 2005 5:16:18 GMT -5
If anyone use a cheat when they shot a straight shot its sad. Its not so hard to pull straigt back only with the mouse if you have a great feeling to do so. I know at least 3 players which is very good at it. I use to be good to make them too. And i also think it is a bit more risky to make the straight ones because if you miss them you don´t have the same chance to get them down if you miss a wall shot. And the new thing i have heard about excel it´s just funny. How can anyone be so dumb using something like this. It´s only a game. But i guess it is at always. Some people need attention all the time. Even if it is bad attention. I guess there is some cheaters with the wall shots too because some players take so very long time to play this shots so. And it also seems it´s not the same player you meet every time when you play someone either.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 6, 2005 5:27:34 GMT -5
i have already worked on and found a solution to the straight back cheat....... its so simple to cure and it doesnt matter if its done using the keys or 2 mouse or any other computer generated method.
however having someone useing a different window in which they have a grid of lines, or whatever to cheat, but are taking the shot themselves is i think an ALMOST impossible thing to cure. i say ALMOST because i have also worked out a solution to this........ however although it can be fixed it would require a large change in the way shockplay is presented on your pc monitor....... and i dont think it is practical for rocketman to do the extra work required to make this "fix".
i do however think the straightback cheat is very easy to cure and i really hope that one day rocketman has a few hours spare (haha ... he is always busy.....time spare? never!) to implement this fix.
i think in the meantime until the "fixes" can be programmed we all will just have to accept that there are sad people who cheat ....... because they dont have the skill to win any other way.
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 6, 2005 16:26:42 GMT -5
Ok folks First - Lets get one thing clear. Its not about using any mousekeys and simular things – I didn’t get it clear if you understood that!!! You said using some Microsoft Office document like Excel is leaving Shockplay to do those straight shots. Thats not the case! Im sure you know that. Ill show some pics below indicating those shots are not made outside Shockplay.Observe! The pics got clickable functionality. So just click and the pic will get larger! Information removed as this IS considered to be cheating, and this forum is not to be used to make this information available.To get the uncensured version (including the uncensured pictures) - please go to: crazycouronners.proboards21.comand watch uncensured couronne opinions Well - What can I say Hektor???
I glad you say its concidered to be cheating and not cheating. I dont know if it was your bad concious that made you write "concidered".
I think this must be a site controlled by North Corea or some simular former Soviet Union alike system. In North Corea the authorities sometimes suddenly cut the current in a region Then they walk into peoples homes taking away the video casette inserted in the Videorecorder. Then they check whats in it. If the content is against some peoples opinion they practise censorship.
Hektor says its "considered to be cheating" Notice Hektor doesnt say it IS cheating !!!
Well - Thats why Ive done this contribution to this discussion.
Now he forbid information that shows there are other views and he wants to force people to think alike. He doesnt accept anything that proves the case could be otherwise. And Hektor also has a short memory. He has forgot he not long ago gave exactly the same info in this forum.
Also: Observe this forum is Unofficial - as its mentioned at the top of the popupwindow leading here.
So this is retarded.
Let me take another example to show what I mean. I have a favorite in Indycar Racing. His name is Kenny Brack. This goes for all the others too of course. But when those people are in the race – Do they use any external support??? Do they only use some internal info on their screen? No – Not at all! They constantly get info from the team who is not in the car. And external programs are used. Further – I often watch the Giro d´Italia and Tour de France. Do the cyclists use any external support? Yes – all the time. They for instance use radiocommunications receiving info from external programs. But they are doing the cycling on the bike of course. Same here – The shots are made within Shockplay – but external infos are received. Scandal Player
|
|
Hook
Passenger
Posts: 28
|
Post by Hook on Jun 6, 2005 18:17:12 GMT -5
LOL, that has to be one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard. Uhh, excuse me but this is a game, not a damn car race. Does a snooker player use any "external support"? How about a Poker Player, or a table tennis player.
What you have shown is a cheat. You do not have the ability to make the shot without some sort of artificial enhancement. If Courounne was meant to be played like that, Rocketman would have programmed in a grid.
|
|
|
Post by Hektor on Jun 6, 2005 19:01:46 GMT -5
Scandal the worst part is probably that you're a grown up...yet you use arguments like "Everyone else does it..." talk about lacking of character... I remember you agreed with me some time ago that this was infact cheating. This is not like geting outsider information from your pit-stop crew in a indycar race...its more like having a computer driving the race for you finding the best route and deciding the best speed for you... Per knows how to fix this I just wonder when he'll take the time to implement my solution again...
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 7, 2005 3:36:36 GMT -5
Quote by Hektor:
Information removed as this IS considered to be cheating, and this forum is not to be used to make this information available.Information by me: To get the uncensured version (including the uncensured pictures) - please go to: crazycouronners.proboards21.comand watch uncensured couronne opinions Well - What can I say Hektor??? You are a very good couronneplayer - but now you have walked over the limit.
Im glad you say its concidered to be cheating and not cheating. I dont know if it was your bad concious that made you write "concidered".
I think this must be a site controlled by North Corea or some simular former Soviet Union alike system.
Why?
In North Corea the authorities sometimes suddenly cut the current in a region Then they walk into peoples homes confiscating the video casettes inserted in the Videorecorders. Then they check whats in it. If the content is against some peoples opinion they practise censorship.
Hektor says its "considered to be cheating" Notice Hektor doesnt say it IS cheating !!!
Well - Thats why Ive done this contribution to this discussion.
Now he forbid information that shows there are other views and he wants to force people to think alike. He doesnt accept anything that proves the case could be otherwise. And Hektor also has a short memory. He has forgotten he not long ago gave exactly the same info in this forum.
Hektor said: "I remember you agreed with me some time ago that this was infact cheating" That is not true. I concider computer controlled shots beeing cheating - not pit stop info. On the contrary - You agreed with me. You said "human mistakes" is still possible in "pit stop info" shots.
Also: Observe this forum is Unofficial - as its mentioned at the top of the popupwindow leading here.
So this is retarded.
|
|
|
Post by max69 on Jun 7, 2005 6:36:02 GMT -5
You should have looked a little more closely at the post scandalplayer. I edited the post, not Hektor.
And it IS considered to be cheating, at least by any REAL player. And this forum will not be used to show people how to cheat.
But I am curious to know what a "computer controlled" shot is. In your first post you mention "touch-pads" and "think-pads". A touch pad is nothing more than a pointing device, controlled by the user, NOT the computer. A "ThinkPad" is a model name for an IBM laptop. I happen to be typing this on a ThinkPad, and let me tell you, it doesn't control anything for me. Unless of course it's using some sort of mind control, making me think I'm still in control...
Next you'll be saying trackballs or this little mouse stick in the middle of my keyboard are cheats...
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 7, 2005 7:59:31 GMT -5
Everyone defending efforts banning legual shots in here keeps refusing giving good arguments. I have not seen any yet. They only refer to REAL players and NOT real player. Its the same way of handling things occuring in North Corea today. Further - when anyone gives an argument against someones opinion - they use censurship. Again - Please go to: crazycouronners.proboards21.com to be able to see the full uncensured story: If the constructors of Shockplay ban certain ways of doing things in here - its no big deal. Its up to them. But no such thing has ever happened yet. But some moderators in here keep hunting arguments - not the shots themself. Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by max69 on Jun 7, 2005 8:28:17 GMT -5
And I don't see a single post from anyone that agrees with you. Everyone seems to agree that using another program outside the ShockPlay window is cheating.
Whether King-Hazzer chooses to allow your post or not is up to him.
|
|
|
Post by King-Hazzer on Jun 7, 2005 10:02:14 GMT -5
No i'm certainly not going to allow scandelplayers post! It is a cheat for bank shots and i will remove and lock that thread! Rocketman is trying to get rid of all the cheating he wont be pleased if he see's Scandel P exposing his little tips onto the web!
Sorry scandel P i dont agree with you this time mate , Stay on my forum if you want put please no more cheats
Very appreciated!
|
|
|
Post by max69 on Jun 7, 2005 10:46:24 GMT -5
I'll leave it open here for now, but only for discussion. If any other cheats get posted, the thread will be locked and the offending poster banned.
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 7, 2005 10:48:01 GMT -5
Well - Suddenly I feel like some kind of a criminal. Wonder whether there is gonna be a trial soon or not?
Some 500 years ago people were killed because they said Earth was like a sphere. Noone cared about any arguments or facts. They just was so scared about what people might think.
This is exactly the same. Noone is listening to any arguments or facts. Just talkin´about what is said to be a common opinion.
Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by max69 on Jun 7, 2005 10:52:50 GMT -5
You're not giving any valid arguments! Only lame excuses to try and make what you know is wrong seem right. It's not working.
And I still haven't seen an explanation of a "computer controlled" cheat.
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 7, 2005 11:22:48 GMT -5
Hi -Max69- I appreciate you want a serious discussion. Thanx You wanted an explanation of a "computer controlled" cheat. Ive only heard about them - as I dont practise them myself. I was recently playing with a "friend" in here. We were discussing cheats. He told me there is computer controlled shots and he showed me how he did it. It was obvious it was computer controlled as the shot was made very quickly without any time for aiming.
He was the one talking about "think-pad" and "tough-pad"- on an IBM-computer. I had never heard of it - and I dont want to practise it either.
Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by Alkelele on Jun 7, 2005 11:45:37 GMT -5
Well, I will not present any deep arguments about whether it is "to be considered" cheating or not (though that is the only working definition one could give after all, there is no higher authority to refer to in this instance, right?).
But I will pose another question: would it make the game more enjoyable if the cheat was not possible? (cause I'm not totally sure).
One thing right now is that it is pretty irritating to play league matches against someone who plays 20 keyboard shots in one single game while you don't cause you know that it is "generally considered wrong, and you try to stay on the right course, cause, breaking the "law" ain't right just because others do it and somebody has to stay fair and hope that others will be inspired to stay fair as well" etc. etc.
But what if people simply said, all right, now this thing is possible, everybody knows it, and already almost half the crowd is doing it in league so why not join them and accept it as just a more or less sanctioned part of the game?
Would it be a worse game?
For this, consider what I would call the "miss margin" at back shots. People using keys miss maybe 5-10% (when puck is in the middle, one has to place the yellow quite precisely after all). If the cheat (feature, whatever) was made impossible, this "miss margin" would be quite a bit higher, and more games would be decided by "back/trick shot" ability as opposed to "open board strategical decisions, corner push, sweep board" ability. Hence overall strategy for the game would probably change quite a bit: more important than anything else would be to make sure opponent gets one behind the line as soon as possible, since you cannot risk to have an endgame with "very difficult back shots" left to do while the opponent has none. Both players would aim for this, and then most games will simply end as back shot shoot outs with a high degree of randomness involved since the miss margin would be considerably higher.
Right now I don't think it is like that at all, people simply adjust and realize that what is important now is not to risk open up the game for the opponent so he can sweep the rest of his pucks. That demands strategical ability. Simply pushing behind the line and waiting for the back shot shoot out does not in my opinion. Please consider also, the ability to make straight shots consistently does not make anybody a winner. If you are up against a better strategical opponent, you will tend to be able to draw your greens while you will lose your reds, roughly speaking.
So that's why I'm considering and asking for consideration: does the straight shot feature (assuming everybody uses it) not actually FAVOR the good STRATEGICAL players? Does it not enhance strategical play as opposed to back shot practice sessions?
Also: straight shot are not the end all/win all thingy in this game. By simply keeping pucks in the straight line, the straight is prevented, and people must try angle back shots anyway. So the skillful angle back shot ability is ALREADY rewarded as it is now. I'm not at all sure that trying to further reward this skill is going to make the games more interesting.
Just food for thought.
|
|
|
Post by SidDan on Jun 7, 2005 17:59:06 GMT -5
Some 500 years ago people were killed because they said Earth was like a sphere. Noone cared about any arguments or facts. They just was so scared about what people might think. Scandal PlayerLol.. what a resemblence this is with couronne,,,, are you perhaps saying the couronne bord is a sphere and not simple flat? here is a better comparison. Almost every Hackers never tend to lecture the hacking skills to lame computer nerds. Nor should a cheat be lectured or even be shown so another lame player may find this amusing and starts getting really good at it.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 8, 2005 1:41:39 GMT -5
as i understand it............ from the very first days of couronne being played on the internet and reading the "instructions on how to play"........
couronne is a game where you "Place the yellow disc on the red line left click, aim, pull the mouse back to adjust power and release to shoot"
in my eyes this means that nothing other then your eyes and your "eye to hand" co-ordination is to be used.
it means nothing then your mouse (or laptop equivelant if thats what you are using) is to be used.
now we goto the Shockplay "Terms Of Service" where it says and i quote.......
quite clearly this says that additional software may NOT be used......... ANYTHING outside of the shockplay window is infact "additional software"!
you will also note that "Automated means" and "Additional Computers" are mentioned, so the use of an extra mouse/touchpad/automated keyboard responses or anything else for that matter is also covered.
in essence if you do not play using 1 single "pointing device" and nothing more then your eyes and "hand co-ordination" you are "Cheating".
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 8, 2005 2:25:51 GMT -5
Thank you Chris
You have given a [glow=red,2,300]good contribution[/glow] to this discussion.
The first one really going to the bottom.
Lets see what come out of it.
Now we must find arguments againt this. First - Then I think Rocketman and others are working against [glow=red,2,300]these good rules[/glow] trying to manipulate the angle of the stick. Because they make FAIR straight shots more difficult than they should be. In fact they are encouraging people to overcome that sabotage to fair play.
There are some further arguments - but I´ll wait with them
Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 8, 2005 2:48:44 GMT -5
SidDan! - You are so right. The pic below shows the ultimate cheat Just look at the thousands of marks on the pancake Just click the pic - and it gets larger! But do it snappy - otherwise the moderators will find the time to ban it. So this is how everybody looks upon couronne today: Within 500 years maybe it finally looks like on the pic below. But I hardy dared to show it: I dont know if anyone in here remember Gunde Swan - the former famous Word Champion and Olympic Master skier.
He was the one introducing skating. One day 1 hour befor the start in a Olympic Games he suddenly appeared with 1 big ski stick. It was some 3 meters long. All the journalists went nuts. Radio and TV reporters started yealling. Was this legual ? ? Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 8, 2005 3:45:38 GMT -5
as i recall......... the stick "manipulation" on straight shots was to counter what at the time was a problem created by people using the "2 mouse method".
i have devised a far simpler method that would allow for the cue to be re-set as it once was to straight but would still not allow anyone to cheat.
the other thing i have noticed is..........
EVERY comparison used (car racing.......skiing.....etc etc) are scenarios based on a "physical situation" ...... couronne is a "virtual situation".
the difference being in all the other comparisons the sportsman is physically located in the same "arena" as his opponent....... what is being done can be seen by all participating and spectating.
it is then very easy and possible to dictate if the use of a 3m. stick for example is against the rules. even after an event is won the win can be taken away by judges and the runner up awarded the win if unfair means were used.
couronne is played in a "virtual arena" and as such has to be based on both TRUST and a rigid set of rules. if someone wins by cheating it is not possible unless proven to remove that win from them.... this is where the element of trust comes into the game. therefore the rules,which are simple to understand, MUST be adhered to to make the game fair to all. if someone has found a way to play the game "outside of the rules" then the game is no longer a "fair" game and no win is a justified win.
ANYONE who is happy to have an "unjustified win" and accept it is, in my opinion, a sad individual that requires fake statistics to boost a low self-esteem.
i feel there is more gratification to be had by practise and playing the best you possibly can.
i have children and i teach them this rule in life...... "no matter if you lose...... if you tried your best and gave it 100% you can stand proud"
when played fair and losing you will have been beaten by the better oppononent...congratulate him and go away and practise until you can beat him...... that is sport.
when winning by using a cheat you were not the better opponent.. the person who lost was because they played fair and you could only win by cheats.
and finally a word to the cheats........ take your points you have won by cheating to the local bank and ask for them to be exchanged for cash... it wont happen..... you have lost the respect people had for you........ you will have lost your own self-respect..... and for what ....... for points that in the real world mean nothing. is that the sign of a mature and sensible person?
i think not!
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 8, 2005 8:02:12 GMT -5
EVERY comparison used (car racing.......skiing.....etc etc) are scenarios based on a "physical situation" ...... couronne is a "virtual situation". the difference being in all the other comparisons the sportsman is physically located in the same "arena" as his opponent....... what is being done can be seen by all participating and spectating. I dont agree. [glow=red,2,300]The pit stop crew isnt visible and the software info they give to the drivers isnt visible either.[/glow] So what some guys in here - like Chris and Hektor says, isnt valid. So according to Hektor and Chris its the computer driving those Indy Cars or Formula 1 cars. Watch these two pics telling you what its all about No - Rocketman - This is an oldfashion way of seeing things. Now we are living in an era where software support the players (drivers) [glow=red,2,300]And Observe!!! - All this isnt at all computercontrolled.[/glow] That would be the case for example Kenny Brack in an Indy Car racing Car if he just was sitting there doing nothing as a computer did the driving. An Excelsheet - isnt either. Your thinking is a bit turbid or muddy Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by Alkelele on Jun 8, 2005 13:52:14 GMT -5
I consider this discussion about whether straight shots are a cheat or not pretty fruitless intellectual excercises. The answer is pretty clear if the Shockplay site directly states that software help outside the couronne board is cheating. Trying to justify the use of it by analogies to other sports is like trying to justify the use of chess engines to assist your play at chess sites (including Shockplay). It's just clearly nonsense.
However, I would be very much interested in comments about whether it is actually a good idea to make this cheat/feature impossible, referring to my post above. The alternative would be for Rocketman to come out and say that keyboard straight shots are OK and encouraged.
What course of action would make a better game?
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 8, 2005 16:23:41 GMT -5
However, I would be very much interested in comments about whether it is actually a good idea to make this cheat/feature impossible, referring to my post above. The alternative would be for Rocketman to come out and say that keyboard straight shots are OK and encouraged. What course of action would make a better game? Great alkelele! That would be a good thing - Thats what I really have tried to get to. But I still dont agree to [glow=red,2,300]keyboard shots [/glow]- cause those are different. We are not discussing those ones. [glow=red,2,300]Just using external sofware support.[/glow] Not Like Chesscomputers - cause they [glow=red,2,300]do[/glow] the action for you. [glow=red,2,300]Excel doesnt[/glow] - It just point out for you where the straight line is. [glow=red,2,300]You have to try following it your self. [/glow] People who are drunk in here will not stand a chance. [glow=red,2,300]But they surely would using a chess-computer[/glow] Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by Hektor on Jun 8, 2005 19:11:50 GMT -5
Good thing that someone cleared it up...
Shockplay law is the valid law...
Clearly this is a cheat since Excel and other imageprograms are "additional software" and its used to enhance your game....
End of discussion...
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 9, 2005 3:10:37 GMT -5
Well Hektor Maybe its the end of the discussion. But that would be very sad - cause . . . [glow=red,2,300]where would that leave the Couronne League?[/glow] Lets make a comparison! [glow=pink,2,300]Please click on the pics to make them larger[/glow] IndycarRacing - 2005 ;D Tour de France, Giro dÌtalia - 2005 ;D (on the pic - J. Ulrich)Shockplay - Couronne League - 2005 Finally for now - Please watch - > www.stevebrunet.com/misc/master.htmits a great contribution Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by max69 on Jun 9, 2005 8:47:27 GMT -5
Yes, it is a great contribution. All without external software support...
|
|
|
Post by scandalplayer on Jun 10, 2005 2:34:01 GMT -5
Yes, it is a great contribution. All without external software support... I think you have drawn a too snappy conclution Max! You just see things on the screen - but you havnt the slightest idea whats going on behind. It might be just like on the pics below [glow=red,2,300]This is what you see[/glow] [glow=red,2,300]This is what can be going on behing[/glow] Scandal Player
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 10, 2005 4:06:41 GMT -5
i suspect very much that Scandal Player is on a very big wind up here. however if he is being serious i would like to take his argument that using outside methods is fair one step further! using his theory i would very much like to play Scandal Player in my local pub at a game of "Pool" for cash prizes. the idea is this........ Scandal player uses 1 table and i use my own table. the first to sink ALL the balls into the pockets WINS £10,000 Below is the tables to be used........ SCANDAL PLAYER'S TABLEbelow is MY table... CHRIS' TABLEas you can see by using methods that are NOT fair and also by using "external software" i will be £10,000 richer very quickly. however if we were to both play on the same "standard" table the game would then be fair and we both have the chance to win the money. now if that doesnt cure the arguement as to if cheating by any means is fair or not then someone here is having an argument just for the sake of having one! Chris
|
|